------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:38:38 +0200
From: Aldo Brucale <vit0202@iperbole.bologna.it>
Subject: Soloing: Four on Six in Gm
Hi to all
I'd like to start a little talk about "Four on Six" by Wes Montgomery. I
only own the old illegal Real Book, but fortunately the changes for the head
seem to be correct (I am referring to the original recording from
"Incredible Jazz Guitar"). I don't agree with the "solo" section:
|Gm7 | | | |
|Cm7 F7 !Bbm7 Eb7 |Am7 D7 |Ebm7 Ab7 |
|Gm7 | | |C-7 F7 |
|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |Gm7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |
First of all, I'm sure that bars 7 and 8 are right for the theme exposition,
but during the solos they are simpler:
|Am7 |D7 |
Also, the cadence in bar 12 is not there: it's a plain Gm7. (This happens
often in the old Real Book: backcycling is systematically imposed).
So my "right" solo changes would be:
|Gm7 | | | |
|Cm7 F7 !Bbm7 Eb7 |Am7 |D7 |
|Gm7 | | | |
|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |Gm7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |
I still have a lot to learn about improvisation, so my soloing during the
modulations in bars from 5 to 7 is not very fluid: I will always play a
phrase in Cm, then one in Bbm , then a II-V in Gm (so the Am7 in bar 7
sometimes gets its fifth flatted), all disconnected. I was wondering if
there was a simpler way to look at the harmonic structure, and playing
against the bass solo I noticed how Percy Heath's changes in bars 5-8 sound
more like:
|Cm7 !Eb7 |Am7 |D7 |
so the whole thing remains in the key of Bb/Gm. I would read Cm7 as the IV
in Gm, Eb7 as the IV in Bb (to be precise, Eb would have a major seventh and
a sharp eleventh, but the dominant sound is usual in this context - it's
bluesy), Am7(b5) and D7 as II-V in Gm or in G. To me, it is much easier
playing with this structure in mind (the piece is not even modulating any
more, if not between Bb and its minor relative), and I can still use the
chords that were left out as substitutions.
I have some questions: can I, viceversa, play these "new" changes if the
bass player plays the former ones? and, is this approach correct
(simplifying the structure of a song and then making substitutions while
playing)?
I'd like to end saying thanks to Reed for the creation of this forum: for
the second time I feel that the Internet is not useless, after all (the
first time being when I downloaded Marc Sabatella's Primer - thank you,
Marc, great work!).
== Aldo Brucale ========[message posted from Bologna, Italia]===
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:26:38 -0700
From: reed <reed@justjazz.com>
Subject: Re: Soloing: Four on Six in Gm
At 10:38 PM 9/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
>== Aldo Brucale ========[message posted from Bologna, Italia]===
>
Aldo,
I'm assuming you are listening to the "Incredible Jazz Guitar of
Wes Montgomery" album.
I'll be posting to this. I also may transcribe the solo out of
curiosity since I've transcribed already some of the other solos
from that record.
BTW, do you have perfect pitch?
reed
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 00:58:15 -0700
From: reed@reedkotler.com (Reed Kotler Consulting)
Subject: Re: Soloing: Four on Six in Gm
Aldo,
I havent really had time to thoroughly answer your post so
let me just give some basic advice. I would like to spend some
time at the piano with this tune but it's too late at night to play
for me right now.
At 10:38 PM 9/30/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi to all
>
>I'd like to start a little talk about "Four on Six" by Wes Montgomery. I
>only own the old illegal Real Book, but fortunately the changes for the head
>seem to be correct (I am referring to the original recording from
>"Incredible Jazz Guitar"). I don't agree with the "solo" section:
>
>|Gm7 | | | |
>|Cm7 F7 !Bbm7 Eb7 |Am7 D7 |Ebm7 Ab7 |
>|Gm7 | | |C-7 F7 |
>|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |Gm7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |
>
>First of all, I'm sure that bars 7 and 8 are right for the theme exposition,
>but during the solos they are simpler:
>
>|Am7 |D7 |
>
>Also, the cadence in bar 12 is not there: it's a plain Gm7. (This happens
>often in the old Real Book: backcycling is systematically imposed).
>
>So my "right" solo changes would be:
>
>|Gm7 | | | |
>|Cm7 F7 !Bbm7 Eb7 |Am7 |D7 |
>|Gm7 | | | |
>|Bbmaj7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |Gm7 |Am7b5 D7b9 |
>
>I still have a lot to learn about improvisation, so my soloing during the
>modulations in bars from 5 to 7 is not very fluid: I will always play a
>phrase in Cm, then one in Bbm , then a II-V in Gm (so the Am7 in bar 7
>sometimes gets its fifth flatted), all disconnected. I was wondering if
>there was a simpler way to look at the harmonic structure, and playing
>against the bass solo I noticed how Percy Heath's changes in bars 5-8 sound
>more like:
>
I am planning to transcribe wes's solo at some point on this tune which might
offer some more insight.
By the way, are your ears good enough to transcribe his solo, if so I
suggest you do that. If not you might try one something easier from this
same record. I might recommend doing the octave solo on "Gone With The Wind".
My experience with Wes's playing is that wes does try and make most of the
changes on these kind of tunes.
That means when it's tight, he's often playing some kind of arpeggio and
the resolving
it. This means that the line will be somewhat disconnected possibly though
it's
possible to just repeat the lick (transposed of course).
For example Cm7->F7 he might play Eb G Bb D F. Where the Eb G Bb D is
essentially
a rootless Cmi9 chord. Then for Bbmi7->Eb7, Db F Ab C Eb.
There are two basic approaches when the changes are tight, especially with
ii/V's.
Once is to just let them go by and possibly catch a note or two that works.
This is probably what someone like chet baker or even Miles would do.
The other is to play some worked out ii/V lick.
Playing music is like engineering as opposed to mathematics.
Different tunes and different parts of tunes require specific solutions.
For example, some parts of a tune are more open and you can stretch and
be more creative.
Other parts may be too busy and in order to keep up you have to resort to
some things you've worked out for that part of the tune. Otherwise you
may have to let some changes go by.
My guess is that Wes had alot of worked out material for fast tunes
or tunes with dense changes (as do most players) and he just didnt feel the
need to be creative everywhere.
For tricky parts of tunes like this, try composing some things to play.
Actually, try composing a solo for the whole tune. When composing you have
alot
of time to work out solutions to problem areas. If you wait until you are
playing then you may be too unprepared.
I plan on posting some examples of this as soon as I finish working out
problems
related to transforming my postcript into giffs, and pdf.
>|Cm7 !Eb7 |Am7 |D7 |
>
>so the whole thing remains in the key of Bb/Gm. I would read Cm7 as the IV
>in Gm, Eb7 as the IV in Bb (to be precise, Eb would have a major seventh and
>a sharp eleventh, but the dominant sound is usual in this context - it's
>bluesy), Am7(b5) and D7 as II-V in Gm or in G. To me, it is much easier
>playing with this structure in mind (the piece is not even modulating any
>more, if not between Bb and its minor relative), and I can still use the
>chords that were left out as substitutions.
>
Cmi7 is the ii of Bb. Eb7 is the V of Ab. I'm a big fan of simplification
but in this instance I think you have to admit where it's really in a
different
key.
While I think that essentially it is just in Bb/Gm but you really can't ignore
the temporary modulation to Ab with the Bbmi7/Eb7 chords.
>I have some questions: can I, viceversa, play these "new" changes if the
>bass player plays the former ones? and, is this approach correct
>(simplifying the structure of a song and then making substitutions while
>playing)?
>
Ideally the musicians are sensitive enough so that if you start playing
different changes the bass player will adjust.
Even with top professionals, they can't always do this.
There are lot's of examples on records where it seems everyone in the band
is playing somewhat different changes.
I think if it sounds okay to you, you can play different changes.
Alot of players have a very strong sense of how they hear the tune and
if the rest of the band is doing something different, they will still
charge ahead.
>I'd like to end saying thanks to Reed for the creation of this forum: for
>the second time I feel that the Internet is not useless, after all (the
>first time being when I downloaded Marc Sabatella's Primer - thank you,
>Marc, great work!).
>
>== Aldo Brucale ========[message posted from Bologna, Italia]===
>
>
>
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 15:42:04 -0400
From: "Lawson G. Stone" <lstone@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Soloing: Four on Six in Gm
One somewhat helpful approach to soloing on Four on Six is to realize
that the changes are exactly the same as Frank Sinatra's rendition of
"Summertime" except for being in Gm. If you think of the melody of
"Summertime" you begin to think of ideas that flow melodically, which is
a nice way to supplement the approach of playing over changes. I know
some people would make "melodic" improvising and improvising over
changes mutually exclusive, but an amateur/beginner like me has to use
every meanws available.
--
//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Lawson G. Stone‹Asbury Theological Seminary‹Wilmore, KY 40390
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:59:20 -0700
From: reed <reed@justjazz.com>
Subject: Re: Soloing: Four on Six in Gm
At 12:58 AM 10/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
|
>>
>>so the whole thing remains in the key of Bb/Gm. I would read Cm7 as the IV
>>in Gm, Eb7 as the IV in Bb (to be precise, Eb would have a major seventh and
>>a sharp eleventh, but the dominant sound is usual in this context - it's
>>bluesy), Am7(b5) and D7 as II-V in Gm or in G. To me, it is much easier
>>playing with this structure in mind (the piece is not even modulating any
>>more, if not between Bb and its minor relative), and I can still use the
>>chords that were left out as substitutions.
>>
>Cmi7 is the ii of Bb. Eb7 is the V of Ab. I'm a big fan of simplification
>but in this instance I think you have to admit where it's really in a
>different
>key.
>
>While I think that essentially it is just in Bb/Gm but you really can't
ignore
>the temporary modulation to Ab with the Bbmi7/Eb7 chords.
>
>
Aldo,
I misunderstood what you were doing right here.
Whatever works for you is fine if it simplifies things as far as
understanding the tune.
I would probably think of this as Cmi7/F7 in the key of Bb. And then think
of the Bbmi7 as the I (a kind of funny Bb) and then just a ii/V modulation
to minor
which makes sense, thus:
Cmi7 F7 | Bb (Bbmi7 Eb7) | Ami7 | D7 |
In fact, during the solos if the Bbmi7 chord is troublesome, you might just
to Bbmaj7 there. Or possibly Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7.
Cmi7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Ebbmaj7 | Ami7 | D7 |
I'm not at the piano right now so I can't hear this but I think is should
work.
With this change you pretty much pure Gm/Bb.
Also, this will probably just merge right in with what the bass player is
doing.
reed
Reed Kotler
reed@justjazz.com
http://www.justjazz.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 19:48:10 -0700
From: reed@reedkotler.com (Reed Kotler Consulting)
Subject: substitutions: Doxy
I havent really studied this tune (for standards this requires
going to the sheet music and for jazz tunes this means transcribing
recordings of the original artist at least).
The fake books give (essentially):
Bb Ab7 | G7 | C7 F7 | Bb F7 |
Bb Ab7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |
Bb7 | | Eb7 | Edim |
Bb Ab7 | G7 | C7 F7 | Bb F7 |
I talked to Richard Hindman (pianist extrodinaire, former
pianist for Stan Getz, Richie Cole and others) and he
was very familiar with this tune and offered a different
take on the tune, which I have added to and hopefully
will convey the essential message.
Dick thinks of the tune as basically a blues for blowing
purposes though his changes are somewhat different.
For the first four he uses:
Bb7 Eb7 | D7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 F7 |
Now this to me suggests in fact a common intro (which I in fact use
but didnt see here) for a blues as well as a turnaround used in
the middle of the blues.
I frequently use:
Bb7 | A7 | Ab7 | G7 |
C7 | F7 | Bb7 G7 |C7 F7 |
This is essentially the turaround I frequently used for the last
six bars of the blues.
Blues in Bb:
Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb7 | Bb7 |
Eb7 | (Edim7) | Bb7 A7 | Ab7 G7 |
C7 | F7 | Bb7 G7 | C7 F7 |
Anyway, you see the walk down from Bb7 which really fits this tune.
Then when you look at the bridge it is the same as bars 3-6 of the
blues.
Anyway, not to runnoff theoretically, you can see that basically
the tune is just a blues shifted over a few bars. Thus a basic
blues in Bb approach will work over the tune.
So in total:
Bb7 A7 | Ab7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 F7 |
Bb7 A7 | Ab7 G7 | C7 | F7 |
Bb7 | | Eb7 | Edim7 |
Bb7 A7 | Ab7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 F7 |
or
Bb7 Eb7 | D7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 F7 |
Bb7 Eb7 | D7 G7 | C7 | F7 |
Bb7 | | Eb7 | Edim7 |
Bb7 Eb7 | D7 G7 | C7 F7 | Bb7 F7 |
An interesting bass line suggested by dick is:
Bb D Eb E | F F# G B |.......
reed
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|
